RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on May 16, 2022 19:58:20 GMT -7
Hey gang. I had it in mind to make a leather costrel tomorrow between work calls but I wanted to check in here first. I’m not rock solid on water conveyance among civilians in the 1750s beyond the gourd. So a couple of quick questions.
Were leather jackware water containers still in regular use in the 1750s?
If not, what’s appropriate for a civilian? I’m determined to not appropriate a military canteen.
If costrels were in use, does anyone have period examples? Relics or art will do. Or Point me in the right direction. I’d like to avoid copying someone else’s work which may be on shaky PC/HC ground.
As always, thanks in advance.
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Post by brokennock on May 17, 2022 1:24:11 GMT -7
I'm pretty sure you're safe with leather for pc/hc.
Blackhand made a nice one and I believe Hawkeyes might have too, so they can help guide you.
I'm pretty satisfied with my beeswax lined gourd.
I had a bad experience with mold/mildew inside of one of those plastic lined leather wine bota things. I've been kind of sketched out on any water carrying device I can't disinfect, clean, and dry really well since that. Given the low mileage of most of my outings now, I'm seriously considering a way to carry a glass bottle.
I don't think the average person traveling on foot carried much water on their person at the time. Drinkable water was available to be found. Also, water seems to always have been suspect for drinking and some type of alcohol appears to be a more common fluid for consumption when not drinking tea or coffee. So I feel this gives us some leeway in how we carry our water now.
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Post by Black Hand on May 17, 2022 4:05:08 GMT -7
Hey gang. I had it in mind to make a leather costrel tomorrow between work calls but I wanted to check in here first. I’m not rock solid on water conveyance among civilians in the 1750s beyond the gourd. So a couple of quick questions. Were leather jackware water containers still in regular use in the 1750s? If not, what’s appropriate for a civilian? I’m determined to not appropriate a military canteen. If costrels were in use, does anyone have period examples? Relics or art will do. Or Point me in the right direction. I’d like to avoid copying someone else’s work which may be on shaky PC/HC ground. As always, thanks in advance. Jackware seems to have a dodgy presence in our period of interest (as best I can tell) as well as the ready availability of "wild" water. Canteens appear to be more of a military thing. All that said, carrying water is a must today so I make allowances and carry a leather canteen (AND a hiking water filter). See this thread minuteman.boards.net/thread/40/jackware-canteen for pictures of the one I've made and carry. |
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Post by paranger on May 17, 2022 4:23:09 GMT -7
I will say up front that I have no experience with jackware - either making it or using it. I made two beeswax lined bottle gourd canteens for my civilian and native imoressions, and love them. I have been amazed at their durability and longevity (contrary to what seems to be the conventional wisdom of their fragility). Another option you might consider is the wooden rumlet. As has already been stated, in the 18th c. alcohol or alcohol mixed with water was very common, if not predominant, unless one was very certain of his water source. Thus, a rumlet would be a very common sight (and many period ones seem to survive). And naturally, for modern use, you could just fill it with water (or not...😁). Here is an original example in my collection:  |
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Post by Black Hand on May 17, 2022 4:40:07 GMT -7
I can certainly attest to the durability of my jackware canteen - it has been dropped from my vehicle onto blacktop FULL of water and the result was a couple minor scratches. By comparison to gourds, wooden & metal canteens, jackware is light, strong AND quiet.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on May 17, 2022 6:03:17 GMT -7
Thanks, fellas. I agree carrying water was likely a low priority in the times, but important for us today. I felt like jackware could be a bit unusual in the mid-1700s. Like Hand, I’ll also carry a filter tucked away to replenish water on overnight trips. I’ve always noticed the prevalence of military items among civilian reenactors at events of all eras and want to avoid that with this impression. So I had considered a few options… My persona is of German-Swiss heritage. I had come across a costrel of an earlier period with PA German adornment and thought it may be an interesting and appropriate item of kit. Something inherited from my persona’s father. I actually think I found this on Keith’s site, but haven’t been able to track it back down.  I’ve also considered glass and ceramic. A period bottle slipped into a pocket or in my main pack. Maybe a leather covered glass ‘flask’. I recently ran across a period reproduction salt glazed ‘beer bottle’ at a local shop here that I thought could work, but golly it was heavy for the volume it would hold! I do like the idea of just a bottle or two slipped into my kit somewhere. The gourd seems common in our period and is likely the safe choice. But you know how these research rabbit holes can go. What else is there? Ha. The rumlet! Now that’s a nifty option I hadn’t considered. Is that a hollowed-log construction? General dimensions? I’m not sure if that’s what I’d carry, but I’d love to make one for ‘entertainment’ at group gatherings. Something new to research! Hand, I’m off to your other thread! Thanks gang! |
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Post by paranger on May 17, 2022 6:37:02 GMT -7
The rumlet! Now that’s a nifty option I hadn’t considered. Is that a hollowed-log construction? General dimensions? I’m not sure if that’s what I’d carry, but I’d love to make one for ‘entertainment’ at group gatherings. Something new to research! Hand, I’m off to your other thread! Thanks gang! I think that costrel looks like a great choice for your impression. As for rumlets, mine is of hollowed out construction, lathe turned with some decorative lines at the ends, fitted with plank sides. It is roughly 6" long and 4" in diameter. I never filled it, but estimate about a pint capacity. I have seen other larger pieces (civilian "canteens?") of similar form, but with coopered stave construction like a small cask. |
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on May 17, 2022 7:40:04 GMT -7
Hand, that jackware canteen looks great. Well done! So that I don’t resurrect an old thread, what are your general dimensions?
There seems to be two types of leather vessels around… the ‘barrel’ and the ‘bottle’ types. Is one more ’correct’ than the other?
I just noticed that the picture I added above is actually a wooden vessel. I’m sure I have record of a leather costrel with a similar design on it.
Is there record or leather covered bottles? I’m also liking the idea of just a bottle or pair of bottles in my pack. I’d need to track down an appropriate reproduction. Stick a cork in it and go.
In the meantime, I’m going to work up a few Manila patterns for a leather vessel.
This stuff is fun, isn’t it?
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Post by Black Hand on May 17, 2022 8:28:58 GMT -7
I will scan my pattern tonight and post it. Happy to walk you through my process.
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Post by spence on May 17, 2022 8:39:14 GMT -7
This stuff is fun, isn’t it? You ain't seen nothin', yet. Got any buffalo in your area? Here's the perfect solution to your water carrying problem. John Baptiste Truteau, 1794, “...we killed a very thin cow. My men took some parts of it. Finding ourselves near a water hole they cleaned the belly of the cow and made a sort of portable urn and filled it with water to drink on the march.” Spence |
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on May 17, 2022 8:42:59 GMT -7
Thanks, Hand! Spence, I’m at this moment standing on my back porch 50’ from Buffalo Creek. It’s unclear when the last Buffalo was gone from this part of Pennsylvania. Animal organ vessels are an interesting thought. But no.  |
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Post by Black Hand on May 17, 2022 9:15:12 GMT -7
Bison bladders were also used for water...mmmmmmm, delicious!
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Post by spence on May 17, 2022 9:38:14 GMT -7
As to how old leather canteens might be...
BLACKJACKS AND LEATHER BOTTLELS, by Oliver Baker...the author says, "the doggeral is early, maybe 16th or 17th century."
page 36
"Showing how glasses and pots are laid aside,
And Flaggons and Noggins they cannot abide,
And let all wives do what they can,
'Tis for the praise and use of a Man,
And this you may very well be sure,
The leather Bottel will longest endure:
And I wish in Heaven his soul may dwell
that first devised the Leather Bottel."
page 44
"Thus you may hear of a Leather Bottel,
when as it is filled with good liquor well,
Though the substance of it be but small,
yet the name of a thing is all.
Ther's never a Lord, Earl, or Knight,
but in a Bottel doth take delight:
For when he is hunting of the Deer,
he often doth wish for a Bottell of Beer:
Likewise the man that works at the Wood,
a Bottel of Beer doth oft do him good, ....."
Spence
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Post by hawkeyes on May 17, 2022 12:28:09 GMT -7
I have a very nice one I've made, several from the pattern. I'd be more than happy to send you my full template. However... they are HEAVY. While extremely nice, the one you see is roon dyed and sewn with heavy linen. I'd opt for a gourd, hands down. Good project for sure, but you won't catch me carrying this costral round the forest... I do line my gourds, but I personally don't feel it's needed. I go about using beeswax because I have access to blocks free of charge so it costs me nothing but time and the good smell of wax.  |
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Post by spence on May 17, 2022 12:36:52 GMT -7
Bison bladders were also used for water...mmmmmmm, delicious! Like this:  They also used the pericardium around the bison heart, what they called 'heart skin':  Spence |
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