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Post by Black Hand on Jun 3, 2022 5:24:52 GMT -7
Awl (maybe, it was so long ago I don't recall), needles, thread, beeswax and small pliers. I don't measure for stitching...
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Post by artificer on Jun 3, 2022 5:36:51 GMT -7
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Jun 3, 2022 5:38:44 GMT -7
Truly, I’m not trying to be argumentative. I think the discussion is interesting and valuable in furthering our understanding of the people, their skills and abilities, and their experiences.
Maybe we can define attributes we would expect to see on a pouch made by a professional leather worker?
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Jun 3, 2022 5:40:44 GMT -7
Gus, check your images, friend. We got a duplicate of the same plate.
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Post by paranger on Jun 3, 2022 5:47:19 GMT -7
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Post by artificer on Jun 3, 2022 6:05:27 GMT -7
Truly, I’m not trying to be argumentative. I think the discussion is interesting and valuable in furthering our understanding of the people, their skills and abilities, and their experiences. Maybe we can define attributes we would expect to see on a pouch made by a professional leather worker? As documented in Diderot above and other places, the number one thing would have been the use of either a pricking iron or a round pricking iron or at least a stitch marking wheel. (The latter is often referred to today by Tandy and some sources as an "overstitch" wheel tool.) This quickly marked the position of the places on which to stab the awl holes in a very uniform manner, so the stitching would have looked much more uniform and esthetically pleasing. IOW, these tools sped up the work and made it more professional looking. Professionals like Harness and Saddle makers and Cordwainers used higher quality leather hides tanned in professional tanneries here in the colonies, though they MUCH preferred English tanned leather, which was a notable step up from tanneries here in the colonies. There is no record of which I'm aware that they would have accepted lower quality, "home vat tanned" hides, because their professional status was on the line. Now a Cobbler may have accepted such hides for use, particularly an itinerant cobbler, but he was not held in the same professional regard as the earlier named trades. Professionals used features not found on many/most amateur made shot pouches from the 18th or 19th century. After that, the quality of dying and finishing would have been higher than amateurs could do without the tools of professionals. Gus
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Post by artificer on Jun 3, 2022 6:11:41 GMT -7
Gus, check your images, friend. We got a duplicate of the same plate. Yep, I can't be sure something is right until I hit the "create post" button and see what actually comes up. For whatever reason, this forum doesn't seem to accept "web capture" pics like the other one does and sometimes it won't accept the address as copy/pasted from other links. It should be fixed now. Gus
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Jun 3, 2022 6:15:48 GMT -7
I understand the use of specialized tools and skill from education and repetitive work stands the professional apart. But I’m seeking physical attributes of any particular shot pouch.
So far I’m gathering these qualities:
* Evenly spaced and small, tight stitching * Leather quality * Quality dyeing of the leather * Cleanness of pattern * Construction methods
Maybe we can firm these up with specifics and add to it to give us a list of expected attributes if we were to examine a relic bag?
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Post by artificer on Jun 3, 2022 6:19:32 GMT -7
LOL! Seriously though, if one wanted a corkscrew for one's wine bottle in most of the 18th century and into the early 19th century, you went to the gunsmith to have one made. Gus
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Post by artificer on Jun 3, 2022 6:28:57 GMT -7
I understand the use of specialized tools and skill from education and repetitive work stands the professional apart. But I’m seeking physical attributes of any particular shot pouch. So far I’m gathering these qualities: * Evenly spaced and small, tight stitching * Leather quality * Quality dyeing of the leather * Cleanness of pattern * Construction methods Maybe we can firm these up with specifics and add to it to give us a list of expected attributes if we were to examine a relic bag? Yes, these are the things one looks for when examining original pieces. OK, have to bow out for a while as the arthritis in my fingers is really acting up now. More later. Gus
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Post by paranger on Jun 3, 2022 6:37:05 GMT -7
I understand the use of specialized tools and skill from education and repetitive work stands the professional apart. But I’m seeking physical attributes of any particular shot pouch. So far I’m gathering these qualities: * Evenly spaced and small, tight stitching * Leather quality * Quality dyeing of the leather * Cleanness of pattern * Construction methods Maybe we can firm these up with specifics and add to it to give us a list of expected attributes if we were to examine a relic bag? Under "construction methods" I would suggest simplicity/efficiency of design and sound engineering /durability. An example of the former include using purpose-made soecialized hardware (buckles, etc) to avoid unecessary complexity. Examples of the latter would be reinforcing high failure areas like buttonholes with stitching or welting, as well as welted construction to protect threads from wear, saddle stitching vice exposed whip stitching, and proper strap attachment (i.e., not stitched perpendicular to the strap length at the top of the attachment point).
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Post by paranger on Jun 3, 2022 6:41:03 GMT -7
I would also add decorative elements which require a high degree of precision (e.g., double welting or "piped" edges, pinking or scalloping, possibly even edge binding.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Jun 3, 2022 7:22:09 GMT -7
I would also add decorative elements which require a high degree of precision (e.g., double welting or "piped" edges, pinking or scalloping, possibly even edge binding. Construction methods could be observed on an existing pouch and closely duplicated with backwoods tools. The decorative elements would admittedly be a challenge… especially any pinking, edge binding or dissimilar leathers. Still, it would be worth a go to see what can be done.
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Post by spence on Jun 3, 2022 7:29:31 GMT -7
Do you suppose this could be a period example of a professionally made pouch being repaired by an amateur? "John Cutright was in this fight, sporting a brand-new shot-pouch which was badly rent by a ball and its contents scattered on the ground. The Indians were routed, and in the short pursuit made by the whites, Cutright was left behind. When the party came back, he was sitting on a log stolidly mending his damaged shot-pouch, embellishing his crude work with an occasional emphatic expletive.” Spence
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Jun 3, 2022 7:55:27 GMT -7
Wonderful, Spence! That would be a swell addition to a reproduction pouch! Maybe when I make one I’ll blast it and make an emergency field repair.
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