RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
|
Post by RyanAK on Jun 20, 2022 12:43:23 GMT -7
Alright then. Let’s see if Kibler has locks available… In this day, supply situation may make the decision for me.
|
|
|
Post by hawkeyes on Jun 20, 2022 13:10:33 GMT -7
Alright then. Let’s see if Kibler has locks available… In this day, supply situation may make the decision for me. If he doesn't have any available for immediate purchase PM me.
|
|
|
Post by spence on Jun 20, 2022 13:47:59 GMT -7
An opinion from the peanut gallery, worth what you paid for it.
I've been using a Davis late English 'Twigg' lock on a dedicated turkey gun since the fall of 1999. When I first got the gun I had to fiddle a bit with the length and angle of the flints used in it to get reliable performance, but once I worked through that the lock has been 100% dependable. It's on a hunting gun, and I'm not one who shoots 100 shots to get ready for the season, so it has not had heavy usage. I've killed quite a few turkeys with it, though, with never a klatch since the first few shots. I have little to no expertise in locks, wouldn't know how to tune one, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Davis lock.
Spence
|
|
|
Post by hawkeyes on Jun 20, 2022 16:11:58 GMT -7
An opinion from the peanut gallery, worth what you paid for it. I've been using a Davis late English 'Twigg' lock on a dedicated turkey gun since the fall of 1999. When I first got the gun I had to fiddle a bit with the length and angle of the flints used in it to get reliable performance, but once I worked through that the lock has been 100% dependable. It's on a hunting gun, and I'm not one who shoots 100 shots to get ready for the season, so it has not had heavy usage. I've killed quite a few turkeys with it, though, with never a klatch since the first few shots. I have little to no expertise in locks, wouldn't know how to tune one, but I wouldn't hesitate to by another Davis lock. Spence Spence, Very humbling opinion on that lock. I truly believe for the typical fella looking for a reliable firelock ignition system, he won't look any further. Myself, I'm not a match shooter, or NMLRA member attending those shoots and don't care to be so the utmost attention to exacting precision isn't paramount. As a hunter and woodsman my Davis locks have preformed admirably by placing food on the table. To me that's what counts more than the name. Some require tweaking more than others, nature of the beast with investment casted parts. However... When talking lock precision Mr. Kibler has stolen the show, his locks are impressive and the late Ketland lock he produces is by far one of the fastest locks I've ever owned and seen thus far.
|
|
|
Post by spence on Jun 20, 2022 16:57:21 GMT -7
I've had no experience with Kibler locks or guns, never will, but they certainly have gained an impressive reputation, and very quickly.
On replica guns I have locks by Davis, Siler large and small, Ron Long, Cochran and Pedersoli. I've never had any serious problems with any of them. I'm sure there is a fairly wide range of speeds in the bunch, but I've never chased that particular rabbit. In my humble opinion, it's easy to make too big a deal of lock speed, because I think good and proper shooting form eliminates the problem of a slow lock.
I'm with you, all my guns do a good job of putting meat on the table, and that's my main requirement. I'm the weak link in that chain, and they frequently make me look better than I am.
Spence
|
|
RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
|
Post by RyanAK on Jun 20, 2022 17:02:39 GMT -7
Thank you, all. Sincerely.
Spence, that kind of experience ain’t peanut gallery opinion, pardner. That’s hard earned understanding in real world conditions.
Gus, we’re on the same page. I may have been a little loose on the nomenclature and caused some confusion. I was referring specifically to the presence of a hammer/pan bridle c.1750. I’m quickly double checking the references I have available (…just for my own edification, not because I’m questioning your knowledge or experience…) but I think I’m good either with or without a pan bridle.
I pinged Kibler to see about availability of his lock. BTW… he’s taking pre-orders for the Woodsrunner kit. Pics on site.
|
|
RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
|
Post by RyanAK on Jun 20, 2022 17:04:16 GMT -7
Also… If you think I’m nuts now, wait until I get to an early rifle build. Or something with a dog lock…
|
|
|
Post by hawkeyes on Jun 20, 2022 17:19:25 GMT -7
Also… If you think I’m nuts now, wait until I get to an early rifle build. Or something with a dog lock… Speaking of nuts I've personally dreamed of making every part by hand for some time. That is how you cut out everything you don't want and make it what you do want. A dream that I hope to become reality one day. From what I've gathered modern firelock building seems to be far more a complex task than those before us likely made it. From every exacting detail for this and that, to nail a specific region or schooling to exacting replicas of relief carvings, they'd probably think we were insane. Honestly, it makes my head spin at times. That's when during the hunting season I grab a firelock, horn and bag then off to the woods I go. Like to think the fellas of old would agree with my grab n go woods methodology. Speaking of that woodsrunner kit I'm just not sold. I really expected a fowling piece. However I have my opinions as to why he hasn't released one yet. Regardless, I'm sure the woodstunner will be a successful kit. First glance it appears to be a slimmed down colonial but there are differences in the architecture and drop of the comb that I can see. The one thing I found so pleasing about the colonial rifle was the ability to select a larger bore size as a smoothbore. The .58 I put together has proven to be one accurate rifle with ball and shot. The bushy tails that were in the line of fire atop in the canopies tasted awfully good!
|
|
RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
|
Post by RyanAK on Jun 20, 2022 18:23:15 GMT -7
Hawkeyes said - “From what I've gathered modern firelock building seems to be far more a complex task than those before us likely made it. From every exacting detail for this and that, to nail a specific region or schooling to exacting replicas of relief carvings, they'd probably think we were insane. Honestly, it makes my head spin at times.”
Absolutely! I’m trying to nail down components that were available prior to a certain year… and will carefully consider stock architecture and embellishments to make sure they’re right… but as for the build, it should be straightforward and ‘simple’. I’m lucky that the fella I’ve found as a guide has the same philosophy when it comes to construction methods. We sorta felt each other out for a bit but when we discovered that we both think a stick is a marvelous tool, we both exhaled.
You should see the wailing and gnashing of teeth that goes on about what glue to use to glue up a bamboo fly rod. Sheesh! The classic rod makers weren’t immune to this sort of thing either, but at the end of the day, they grabbed resorcinol and moved forward.
And THAT is where I think the distinction lies. We’re hobbyist with the luxury to fool around with this stuff and try to get it ‘perfect’ if we want. No professional gunmaker trying to feed his family is going to spend 10 minutes, let alone a week, deciding on what lock to use on a gun he’s building. There’s another to be built just after this one… and time, literally, is money.
|
|
|
Post by hawkeyes on Jun 21, 2022 4:41:29 GMT -7
We’re hobbyist with the luxury to fool around with this stuff and try to get it ‘perfect’ if we want. No professional gunmaker trying to feed his family is going to spend 10 minutes, let alone a week, deciding on what lock to use on a gun he’s building. There’s another to be built just after this one… and time, literally, is money. Bingo... What we do isn't a matter of life and death, if it was there would be allot less talk and allot more time aloft in the forest. It's a humbling hobby none the less trying to walk in the steps of those before for just a small glimpse of their lives.
|
|
RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
|
Post by RyanAK on Jun 21, 2022 12:28:18 GMT -7
Ok… additional research on these locks has been done. As Gus states above, pan bridles seem to have been common on all but the cheapest British guns by sometime in the 1740s. What’s tougher to pin down is how common a round-faced export lock available to gunmakers in Pennsylvania was with a pan bridle. Certainly by 1760 they were showing up on colonial-built guns. There aren’t many relic colonial guns extant c.1740-1750 to get a good sense of what was being used by colonial makers building fowlers (when not scavenging parts). The colonial-built Germanic-style guns I have been able to search out are consistently later guns. Grinslade’s earliest referenced “Kentucky Fowler” is c.1770 with the majority much later and these mostly have flat-faced locks. The undated Moravian gun I was able to view in my mentor’s copy of Moravian Gunmakers Vol. II appear considerably earlier… maybe 1750s. This gun has a round-face English lock without a pan bridle. Just sharing what I’ve found. I’m waiting to hear back from Kibler on the availability of their lock. Otherwise a Chambers will do good service.
|
|
|
Post by artificer on Jun 22, 2022 5:52:59 GMT -7
Ryan,
The first and most likely the very last complete flintlock lock (and usually entire gun) made by gunsmiths in this country during that period was the one lock they made to pass their apprenticeship. After that, it was far cheaper to import a lock (and barrels and most other metal parts), made in the factories of England and the rest of Europe. (Most gunsmiths before the AWI made most of their living repairing or restocking guns or other things, though they could assemble guns from parts at the customer's request.) So as long as a lock style was available, they could and did import it, even if we don't have records so complete to fully describe the imported locks.
Small Colonial Gunsmith Shops with a Master, MAYBE one or at most two passed Journeymen Gunsmiths (normally ones they had trained) and an apprentice or two was the maximum work force. Many shops had only a Master and maybe an apprentice, at least until the apprentice made his complete gun and passed the Journeyman requirements.
In the gunsmithing factory shops in England and on the continent, gunsmithing was broken down into at least 13 to as many as about 21 "sub trades." In some shops, the only thing they did was rough forge barrels and perhaps rough finish them to the specifications of the contract they worked on. Lock making was broken down into the sub trades of Lock Forgers, Spring Makers and Lock Filers - the latter normally the highest paid as they fit and assembled the parts of the lock. Someone else normally engraved the lock plates and other visible parts.
The idea that many or most early colonial American gunsmiths made all or most of the parts on every gun they built, is just a myth, because they just couldn't compete with the factory shops in Europe.
Gus
|
|
RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
|
Post by RyanAK on Jun 22, 2022 6:20:53 GMT -7
You bet, Gus. So in the best tradition of the colonial gunsmith, I bought a barrel that needs a bit of work and I’ll buy a lock. I’m building from a plank. Buy trigger guard casting and a side plate but bash a butt plate from sheet. I’m having the barrel inlet and ramrod hole drilled, but otherwise I’m trying to replicate the methods.
I may have mentioned this already, but this will also be a non-electric build.
|
|
RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
|
Post by RyanAK on Jun 22, 2022 6:24:28 GMT -7
Also… still haven’t heard back from Kibler or Chambers on lock availability. Might need to call them….
|
|
|
Post by spence on Jun 22, 2022 8:09:13 GMT -7
The Pennsylvania Gazette March 6, 1776 EXTRAORDINARY Wages will be given to two or three Journeymen Gunsmiths, who are skilled in Stocking of Muskets and Rifles . Likewise good Encouragement will be given to a Gunlock Filer, that can make Musket Locks. --- Apply to THOMAS PALMER, the North Side of Market street, between Fourth and Fifth streets, Philadelphia. N.B. Any person that has Skill to accomplish either of the aforesaid Branches, may, if they choose, work Piece work, and receive their Cash every Saturday Afternoon; or a Sum of Money will be advanced to them, by giving Security for the Delivery of their Work. ************** An original Palmer musket: Spence
|
|