RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jun 19, 2022 13:19:05 GMT -7
Watch this space. 46” Getz 20ga Octagon-to-Round barrel.
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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 19, 2022 15:30:10 GMT -7
You'll enjoy that barrel, many years of reliable service. From soldering lugs and the front blade to smoothing her out baby butt smooth... Let the fun begin!
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jun 19, 2022 15:43:40 GMT -7
I’m excited. Going to visit Allen Martin just outside of town soon to choose wood. Then working out the stock profile. In the meantime I’ll be working with the files on the barrel and deciding on a lock.
Any thoughts on the available early English import locks?
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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 19, 2022 16:36:58 GMT -7
I’m excited. Going to visit Allen Martin just outside of town soon to choose wood. Then working out the stock profile. In the meantime I’ll be working with the files on the barrel and deciding on a lock. Any thoughts on the available early English import locks? Yup, R.E. Davis sells an early style English lock that's great. However, I will say Kiblers round face English lock is a solid winner hands down. However it MAY be a tad late for the style your wanting to nail. Not entirely sure what date he attributes his lock to but it appears to me it may be a later style. None the less, certainly worth investigating.
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Post by paranger on Jun 19, 2022 16:41:19 GMT -7
Mike Brooks uses the Davis round-faced English lock in his Type Gs, FWIW.
Chambers also makes one (L#12), but I don't have any experience with them.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jun 19, 2022 17:25:31 GMT -7
Davis and Chambers were on my list, though I can’t remember if the Chambers has a hammer bridle or not. I saw a Davis lock on my guide’s Type G today and it seems good. I’ll need to take a closer look at the Kibler for date… that lock seems to have an incredible reputation, along with Chambers. And if Brooks uses a Davis lock, I’d say that’s an excellent endorsement. This will likely come down to who’s lock dates the earliest.
Finally getting into the nuts and bolts feels great. Truly. Thanks for the input.
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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 19, 2022 18:11:49 GMT -7
Davis and Chambers were on my list, though I can’t remember if the Chambers has a hammer bridle or not. I saw a Davis lock on my guide’s Type G today and it seems good. I’ll need to take a closer look at the Kibler for date… that lock seems to have an incredible reputation, along with Chambers. And if Brooks uses a Davis lock, I’d say that’s an excellent endorsement. This will likely come down to who’s lock dates the earliest. Finally getting into the nuts and bolts feels great. Truly. Thanks for the input. Davis locks are great so you don't need to worry about a thing outside normal tuning and finish work. Which is an art in itself and a task I thoroughly enjoy. The kibler lock hands down is phenomenal out of the gate. From fit, function and style his locks are IMO a new standard. If I recall his pieces are machined versus investment casting which obviously yields a superior lock. I own multiple chambers locks and davis locks along with four kibler locks and honestly, wouldn't bat an eye between selecting any as they all are fabulous in their own right. Obviously an investment cast lock will require more work on your part which certainly isn't a bad thing. On a side note, I had an L&R lock with a faulty heat treat on the steel. Hard to correct without a solid heat treating setup, can be done by other means but that's a topic for another discussion... My point, myself personally out of the locks out there L&R is my least favorite but that is just my personal opinion. They do have some offerings that may peak your interest as well.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jun 19, 2022 18:49:29 GMT -7
Take this question in the spirit in which it’s meant: Is the Kibler lock too perfect in its finish and machining? If you know what I mean. Just curious since I’ve not seen one in person. That lock has a hammer (frizzen) bridle which is later than I want for this build, so this is just idle aesthetic pondering.
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Post by artificer on Jun 19, 2022 23:06:10 GMT -7
Take this question in the spirit in which it’s meant: Is the Kibler lock too perfect in its finish and machining? If you know what I mean. Just curious since I’ve not seen one in person. That lock has a hammer (frizzen) bridle which is later than I want for this build, so this is just idle aesthetic pondering. British Ordnance switched over completely to double bridle locks on their Land Pattern Military Muskets (Brown Besses) in 1740. This was at least a decade AFTER civilian double bridle locks were common on medium (export quality) to high quality guns. Sure the LOWEST QUALITY trade gun locks were no bridle or single bridle almost to end of the 18th century, but on the gun you are building, a double bridle lock was perfectly HCPC and common. MOST of the repro 18th century gun locks available today are at least close enough to having interchangeable parts and that was completely not available until the Model 1841 Percussion Rifle. I've only seen two of Kibler's locks and they are truly superb and in a class by themselves, BUT except for the closest thing to true interchangeability of parts in ANY repro flintlock, they are no better than the Best Grade locks available in the 18th century. You COULD get a Kibler as good as a perfectly fitted best quality period flintlock, but it would still have to be done by careful hand selection and testing for the best lock possible. Gus
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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 20, 2022 3:10:07 GMT -7
Take this question in the spirit in which it’s meant: Is the Kibler lock too perfect in its finish and machining? If you know what I mean. Just curious since I’ve not seen one in person. That lock has a hammer (frizzen) bridle which is later than I want for this build, so this is just idle aesthetic pondering. Don't limit yourself. I get what your trying to do. The kibler locks are the best functioning locks I personally have ever put my paws on in terms of functionality, fit and architecture. Outside of that particular lock I'd select a Davis/ Chambers lock.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jun 20, 2022 8:07:20 GMT -7
So one of the things I’ve agreed to in exchange for being tutored on this build is to have the gun critiqued at Dixon’s. There’s apparently a couple of classes, including a ‘contemporary’ class. Some of them require supporting documentation to place a gun in a timeframe and ‘style’.
Gus, that’s great info and apparently I need to do some additional research. I knew British ordinance had moved to double bridle locks, but I’m more hazy on the locks used on English pieces or being exported to the colonies. I guess I didn’t go far enough in my studies and defaulted to a single bridle lock to be safe on my pre-1750 date.
There are still two options in play… English fowler or colonial-built gun. A close copy of an English gun would be ‘easier’ to get right.
Chambers’s Round Face English lock has a hammer bridle, as does the Virginia version.
Kibler is double bridle.
Davis has a single bridle option.
Off to the books!
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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 20, 2022 8:49:37 GMT -7
You've basically answered your own question. Stick with the Davis lock and your set.
I always keep the perspective, no matter how hard I try a rifle built isn't from the 18th century unless it's an original!
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jun 20, 2022 10:18:52 GMT -7
You've basically answered your own question. Stick with the Davis lock and your set. I always keep the perspective, no matter how hard I try a rifle built isn't from the 18th century unless it's an original! I keep that perspective too. But we can come close by careful thought and trying to adhere to period methods. Davis lock and this barrel. Good start. English or colonial will determine the wood. English or Germanic style will determine the rest.
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Post by artificer on Jun 20, 2022 10:33:06 GMT -7
So one of the things I’ve agreed to in exchange for being tutored on this build is to have the gun critiqued at Dixon’s. There’s apparently a couple of classes, including a ‘contemporary’ class. Some of them require supporting documentation to place a gun in a timeframe and ‘style’. Gus, that’s great info and apparently I need to do some additional research. I knew British ordinance had moved to double bridle locks, but I’m more hazy on the locks used on English pieces or being exported to the colonies. I guess I didn’t go far enough in my studies and defaulted to a single bridle lock to be safe on my pre-1750 date. There are still two options in play… English fowler or colonial-built gun. A close copy of an English gun would be ‘easier’ to get right. Chambers’s Round Face English lock has a hammer bridle, as does the Virginia version. Kibler is double bridle. Davis has a single bridle option. Off to the books! Ryan, Maybe our terminology isn't quite the same, but I suspect you may not fully understand something. The two Chamber's locks you mentioned above are NOT JUST "hammer bridle," but in fact are double bridle locks. This means there is a "Hammer Bridle" or Pan Bridle as more commonly referred to today, but both these locks also have the interior Bridle over the Tumbler as shown below in the rather fancy interior Bridle. (BTW, if locks only had a single bridle, it was almost always the case the bridles on them were inside and over the tumbler. This because the correctly fit interior bridle also stopped the cock from going to far forward and down by limiting the travel of the Tumbler, rather than just relying ONLY on shoulder of the cock to stop it - as on a no bridle lock. ) cdn.trackofthewolf.com/imgPart/lock/lock-va-fr_2.jpgOK, I am going to write the next part VERY carefully in hopes not to be misunderstood. I have a lot of books on flintlocks and have viewed originals in many museums both here and in England. These included many "best quality" flintlocks and even some Royal Quality ones, IOW the rarest of the rare. I have never seen anything like the " added features of a relief border around the plate and cock, and a raised waterproof pan" on the Chambers English Round Faced Lock. This doesn't mean such a feature didn't exist, but I can't document it to locks or guns imported here during the period you are interested. Even that doesn't mean they weren't imported then, BUT before I would use that lock on your fowling piece, I would call Chambers to ensure is historically accurate to the gun you plan on building. This even more so on a gun you will have judged at Dixon's. Also having seen a whole bunch of Davis' locks over the years from the time he began making them, there is NO way I would use a Davis lock, though I admit I haven't seen a new one in 3-5 years. Again, I would most strongly urge you to get the Kibler Round Faced English Lock as the first choice and the Chambers Virginia lock as the second choice. This is from a guy who first began doing trigger jobs on ML locks in 1974, had to do WAY TOO many cases of trying to turn a sow's ear quality lock into something useable and even working on extremely expensive original guns at two World Championships. Other locks can be made into something good, but it often takes someone who really knows what they are doing. Gus
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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 20, 2022 11:40:30 GMT -7
You've basically answered your own question. Stick with the Davis lock and your set. I always keep the perspective, no matter how hard I try a rifle built isn't from the 18th century unless it's an original! I keep that perspective too. But we can come close by careful thought and trying to adhere to period methods. Davis lock and this barrel. Good start. English or colonial will determine the wood. English or Germanic style will determine the rest. That we can, but we are also limited to modern production methods at times and the whims of a modern society. I think Gus nailed it very well. The Davis locks I have are phenomenal, no issues and that is my experience so me personally I have no quarrel with them. The older locks as Gus pointed out seem to have had issues. The new locks I've acquired over the years have proven very reliable, fast and more functional than myself when spruced up a bit. However, the Kibler lock is without a doubt leaps over the others and again, I'll second the Kibler lock. Your funds and your build. For every person with advice there's a million opinions and ways to do this or that. In the end you decide what's best for you. Just speaking from my experience.
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