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Post by artificer on Jun 22, 2022 9:53:17 GMT -7
You bet, Gus. So in the best tradition of the colonial gunsmith, I bought a barrel that needs a bit of work and I’ll buy a lock. I’m building from a plank. Buy trigger guard casting and a side plate but bash a butt plate from sheet. I’m having the barrel inlet and ramrod hole drilled, but otherwise I’m trying to replicate the methods. I may have mentioned this already, but this will also be a non-electric build. Are you planning on making the butt plate from Iron or Steel? The reason I ask is because even if a one man gun shop would have made a butt plate from brass, he almost certainly would have cast it (from scrap brass) or purchased one already cast. Gus
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Post by artificer on Jun 22, 2022 10:30:21 GMT -7
The Pennsylvania Gazette March 6, 1776 EXTRAORDINARY Wages will be given to two or three Journeymen Gunsmiths, who are skilled in Stocking of Muskets and Rifles . Likewise good Encouragement will be given to a Gunlock Filer, that can make Musket Locks. --- Apply to THOMAS PALMER, the North Side of Market street, between Fourth and Fifth streets, Philadelphia. N.B. Any person that has Skill to accomplish either of the aforesaid Branches, may, if they choose, work Piece work, and receive their Cash every Saturday Afternoon; or a Sum of Money will be advanced to them, by giving Security for the Delivery of their Work. ************** An original Palmer musket: <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> Spence Great quote and especially right on point about the gun lock filer when we HAD to begin major production of arms for what would become the AWI. As British Factors like Richard Wilson and others were closed off to us, Palmer and some other gunsmiths set up some of what were our first gun factories and/or contracted with others, similar to what had been done in England for quite some time. To George Washington from William Milnor, 29 November 1774 From William Milnor Philada Novr 29th 1774Honorable Sir Your favour of the 17th Inst. came to hand on fryday last,1 I have made the strictest search, after a Sash and have sent the only one, that is to be had in this City, I am sorry to inform you, ’tis not intirely New tho’ not much changed. I have bought it Conditionly if not approved of, to be returnd by the first post & taken again, I had no Alternitive, as no Other Could be had. The Epaulette is inclosed with the pamphlets—the Gorget is Making, & will Come by the Next post—after the strictest inquiry, I could find no Other Treatise on Military Discipline, but the one I have sent you2—I have enclosed you a Vile pamphlet said to be wrote by Dr Cooper of New York, & likewise another small pamphlet called Strictures on the former, said to be wrote by General Lee of this City3—here I must beg youl excuse my presumeing to exceed your Orders, as ’tis with an intintion to amuse. for if you have patience to read the first, I think you will be deverted with the last. I have Applyed to two Gunsmiths, One palmer tells me he Can make one hundred by May next, And Nicholson says he can make the like Number by March, they both agree in the priece at £3.15. this Currcy.4 Palmer says Mr Cadvalder had agreed With him for 100 at that price, a Jersy Musquet was brought to palmer for a patern, Mr Shreive Hatter of Allexandira has one of that sort, which you may see, & if you Conclude to have any, please to inform me by the first post, as the Gunsmiths I blieve will soon be preengaged, & there is not one Musquet to be bought in this City at present, if you should chose any Alteration, from that Musquet please to let us know5—Mr Fleecen assures me the Drums Coulers &c. shall be ready to come with the first Vessels & you may be assured I shall forward them with the Utmost speed.6 I am Dear sir with the greatest respect, Your Most Obedt humble Sert William Milnor ALS, DLC:GW. 1. The letter has not been found. 2. No letter ordering these personal items has been found. They were probably purchased by GW while he was attending the Continental Congress. The treatise on military discipline that Milnor sent was Thomas Webb’s A Military Treatise on the Appointments of the Army, published in 1759 in Philadelphia. It was in GW’s library at Mount Vernon when he died. 3. Myles Cooper, president of King’s College, published anonymously A Friendly Address to All Reasonable Americans in New York in 1774. This pamphlet argued not only the impropriety of opposing Great Britain but especially the uselessness of trying to oppose the British military forces, which would include German mercenaries and American Loyalists. Charles Lee (1731–1782), a veteran English soldier, had retired on half-pay with the rank of major. He gained his title of general from service for the king of Poland. He had already written several newspaper articles in support of the colonists when in November he published in Philadelphia a response to Cooper’s pamphlet entitled Strictures upon a “Friendly Address to All Reasonable Americans.” Lee’s pamphlet was reprinted at least five times during the ensuing winter in various cities and appeared in American newspapers as well (Alden, Charles Lee, 62–63; Virginia Gazette [Purdie; Williamsburg], 3 Feb. 1775; Connecticut Courant [Hartford], 6 Feb. 1775). 4. Thomas Palmer had a shop on Market Street between Fourth and Fifth streets in Philadelphia. He furnished flintlock muskets for the Pennsylvania militia, and he advertised in the Pennsylvania Gazette (Philadelphia) on 30 Mar. 1774 (supplement): “A Quantity of well made RIFLES, that he will dispose of very low for Cash. He likewise makes all Sorts of SHOT GUNS, such as str⟨a⟩ight Rifles, Cocking-pieces, Fuzees, &c. in the best and neatest Manner.” John Nicholson’s shop was on Front Street in Philadelphia from 1774 to 1792. He too supplied muskets to the Pennsylvania militia during the Revolution. 5. John Cadwalader (1742–1786), a Philadelphia businessman, commanded a troop of prominent citizens referred to as the Silk-Stocking Company and later was a colonel and brigadier general in the Pennsylvania militia. Benjamin Shreve (Schrieve), an Alexandria hatter, owned a lot in Alexandria on Fairfax Street at Prince Street (Fairfax County Deed Book K–1 [1772–73], 1–4). On 10 Nov. Shreve and a number of Alexandria citizens inserted in the Virginia Gazette (Purdie and Dixon; Williamsburg), an advertisement to the printer of the Norfolk Intelligencer canceling subscriptions to that newspaper because of its Tory writings. 6. On 13 Dec. GW entered into his account with Milnor the following items: “By an Officer’s Sash pr Mr Fleecen . . . 5.0.0[,] By a Gorget pr Bill sent . . . 4.10.0[,] By an Epaulette . . . 1.10.0[,] By Mr Webbs Treatise . . 4.0[,] By Postage of a Letter[,] By Sundry Pamphlets” (Ledger B, 123). The last two entries had no amount given. “Fleecen” may have been Plunket Fleeson of Philadelphia. The “Drums Coulers &c.” mentioned by Milnor were probably the ones requested on 19 Oct. by William Rumney, Robert Hanson Harrison, and John Fitzgerald for the Fairfax Independent Company. Gus
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Post by artificer on Jun 22, 2022 10:48:04 GMT -7
Oh, that "Jersey Musket" mentioned above to be used as a pattern, most likely was a Richard Wilson musket, as they had contracted with him for many muskets in the recent past.
Gus
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Post by spence on Jun 22, 2022 13:35:37 GMT -7
Excellent, Gus. I stole some of that.
The Palmer musket being displayed in the picture I posted above is said to be one of a batch of 40 provided to a Virginia militia, Prince William County Independent Company, by George Washington.
Spence
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Post by artificer on Jun 22, 2022 13:47:55 GMT -7
Excellent, Gus. I stole some of that. The Palmer musket being displayed in the picture I posted above is said to be one of a batch of 40 provided to a Virginia militia, Prince William County Independent Company, by George Washington. Spence Well, I'm just tickled pink to have found something not already in your vast library of period quotes and that you would like to add. I looked up Palmer years ago after you provided the Palmer quotes on the other forum. I can't remember exactly, but I think as he expanded his shop and outside workers, he wound up making around 400 rifles and muskets before the British occupied Philadelphia in 1777. Gus
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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 22, 2022 16:59:27 GMT -7
You bet, Gus. So in the best tradition of the colonial gunsmith, I bought a barrel that needs a bit of work and I’ll buy a lock. I’m building from a plank. Buy trigger guard casting and a side plate but bash a butt plate from sheet. I’m having the barrel inlet and ramrod hole drilled, but otherwise I’m trying to replicate the methods. I may have mentioned this already, but this will also be a non-electric build. Are you planning on making the butt plate from Iron or Steel? The reason I ask is because even if a one man gun shop would have made a butt plate from brass, he almost certainly would have cast it (from scrap brass) or purchased one already cast. Gus Great advice here. I'm currently saving scrap brass from work for this very purpose. Also thank you for sharing that information Gus, I also commandeered portions of that as well.
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Post by artificer on Jun 22, 2022 17:56:15 GMT -7
You are most welcome.
Gus
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jun 22, 2022 18:00:39 GMT -7
Great stuff, friends. I’ve had a long day so will write more tomorrow. Just wanted to state something about the butt plate. The photos of the Moravian gun certainly make it look like the butt plate was shaped from brass sheet, rather than being a casting. If I build something like an English-style colonial gun, I’ll certainly use a commercial part. I’m still up in the air on a choice. Germanic Pennsylvania smoothbore, English-style colonial gun, or English import Fowler. Something is whispering a maple stocked smoothbore with English Fowler stock profile, English lock and furniture, and some Germanic incise carving… Something like this contemporary piece. If I can find a pre-1750 colonial gun to base this build off of, I’d be over the moon…
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Post by brokennock on Jun 22, 2022 18:23:13 GMT -7
...If I can find a pre-1750 colonial gun to base this build off of, I’d be over the moon… You really should contact Mr. Dave Persons about this. If anyone else even loosly associate with can provide on this, it will be he.
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Post by artificer on Jun 22, 2022 18:53:47 GMT -7
Great stuff, friends. I’ve had a long day so will write more tomorrow. Just wanted to state something about the butt plate. The photos of the Moravian gun certainly make it look like the butt plate was shaped from brass sheet, rather than being a casting. If I build something like an English-style colonial gun, I’ll certainly use a commercial part. I’m still up in the air on a choice. Germanic Pennsylvania smoothbore, English-style colonial gun, or English import Fowler. Something is whispering a maple stocked smoothbore with English Fowler stock profile, English lock and furniture, and some Germanic incise carving… Something like this contemporary piece. <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> If I can find a pre-1750 colonial gun to base this build off of, I’d be over the moon… With respect, I extremely doubt the butt plate on the original Moravian gun was bent from sheet, rather than cast. The top/front of the tang is way too long and between that and the curvature of the rear of the plate, it would be WAY too easy to break off a portion trying to beat it into shape, even with frequent annealing. Besides, I can't imagine them spending the time to even try beating it to shape when casting would have been so much easier and quicker. Oh, I made a "D" guard for my home made cutlass from thick sheet brass years ago. I admit even though I annealed it well, I was nervous about just bending it to that shape and that would be a lot less bending than you are about to do. Gus
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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 23, 2022 5:22:45 GMT -7
Great stuff, friends. I’ve had a long day so will write more tomorrow. Just wanted to state something about the butt plate. The photos of the Moravian gun certainly make it look like the butt plate was shaped from brass sheet, rather than being a casting. If I build something like an English-style colonial gun, I’ll certainly use a commercial part. I’m still up in the air on a choice. Germanic Pennsylvania smoothbore, English-style colonial gun, or English import Fowler. Something is whispering a maple stocked smoothbore with English Fowler stock profile, English lock and furniture, and some Germanic incise carving… Something like this contemporary piece. View AttachmentView AttachmentIf I can find a pre-1750 colonial gun to base this build off of, I’d be over the moon… Personally, I think an import piece would be much more plausible.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jun 23, 2022 5:34:53 GMT -7
I agree, Hawk. The only pause I have is do I have the skills to pull off a British gun? I think I can manage a high level of fit and finish, but the carving and engraving might be a challenge.
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Post by artificer on Jun 23, 2022 6:15:32 GMT -7
I agree, Hawk. The only pause I have is do I have the skills to pull off a British gun? I think I can manage a high level of fit and finish, but the carving and engraving might be a challenge. The carving you mentioned earlier is all you need do on a British import. As far as the engraving, you could always have someone else do that, as was so often/normally done in the factory shops in the UK. Gus
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jun 23, 2022 9:49:04 GMT -7
Now to find the “right” c.1750 Fowler to consider. The research is great fun.
I’d guess the specs for this build would look something like this;
* Barrel - 46”, octagon-to-round, .62 cal, pinned. Is the absence of a ‘wedding band’ at the transition ok?
* Lock - Round face English with pan bridle. Kibler or Chambers.
* Stock - Walnut with lock and side plate plateaus and barrel tang shell carving.
* Fittings - English castings. ‘Sporting’ or ‘Martial’ engraving motifs?
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Post by artificer on Jun 23, 2022 10:54:58 GMT -7
Now to find the “right” c.1750 Fowler to consider. The research is great fun. I’d guess the specs for this build would look something like this; * Barrel - 46”, octagon-to-round, .62 cal, pinned. Is the absence of a ‘wedding band’ at the transition ok?
* Lock - Round face English with pan bridle. Kibler or Chambers. * Stock - Walnut with lock and side plate plateaus and barrel tang shell carving. * Fittings - English castings. ‘Sporting’ or ‘Martial’ engraving motifs? As interested as you are in fine details, perhaps you should consider this book that many recommend. www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/294/1/BOOK-FF-SGus
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